Seizing and Navigating Joy in Midlife - Interview with guest Martha McBride with Host Lauren Raymond on the Navigating Joy Together Podcast - Season 1 BONUS Episode

Martha: 0:00

Hey there here's what's coming up in this episode. the things that happen are not amazing. Some of them are just, you're like, what? it's ludicrous, but I don't believe it has to be miserable all the time. Mm-hmm. And I thought if I'm gonna make perimenopause my identity, it's gonna be fun. so that's what I did. Welcome to the My Aloof Vagina Podcast, where we explore the distress and surprise of our midlife transitions. It's inevitable, so we may as well equip ourselves and have a good time. hey there, I'm just popping in to provide an introduction to this bonus episode. It's. Part of an interview I did and I cut it to fit this show. because their show is a bit longer But if you want to hear more, you can find their entire podcast anywhere you listen. it's called navigating joy together and it's a family. Doing episodes about the different tactics they're using to make sure they keep joy alive in their lives. I found it to be a really sweet show. I found the family to be lovely. Lauren, the mom. Is a woman also of a certain age. And we hit it off. I think you might enjoy today's. Excerpts. Is that how you say that? I have only read it. Excerpt to you. Do you even pronounce the P I don't know. That's not the point. The point is., I do talk about. The journey of the podcast. I do talk a little bit about the relational situation. That left me depressed. And. Kind of fueled my search for meaning Martha's search for meaning. That finally got my podcast off the ground. So that may or may not be interesting to you. If not that's okay. This is just a bonus. Without any further ado. Let's. Make our way through navigating joy to get there.

Lauren: 1:44

Martha McBride, thank you so much for being

Martha: 1:47

here. Hi. Hi.

Lauren: 1:48

So would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Martha: 1:50

Yeah, I am. In my fifties, I'm single. I'm actually a grandmother now. I'm a nana, which is crazy. Oh And I have just gotten into podcasting after a lifetime of wanting to do something like that, I just seized this season in my life to do Something that brings me joy. But I have a long background in media and writing and all those kinds of things. actually a, varied background because I was a single mom. I got pregnant very young and then divorced, so I kind of hustled through life and was just doing whatever I could do and needed to do to support my son, which meant a lot of really responsible jobs and a lot of making choices that were based on necessity. So I'm grateful to be in this season where I'm older and I can do other things and kind of experiment and do some things that are a little more frivolous.

Lauren: 2:43

First question, what drives your daily joyful choices?

Martha: 2:48

Currently? Yes. Let's talk about very currently. Cause , I have to admit that I've had periods of time where I'm not as in touch with joy. And I actually came out of a depression, which happens after a bad experience. I had a terrible breakup. Mm-hmm. It wasn't just the breakup that was terrible. Really. A couple years leading up to the breakup. It was not great didn't realize how disconnected I was from joy. I certainly looked joyful to other people cause I am, one of those people and I show up shiny and happy and optimistic because I am naturally. And I was kind of gaslighting myself a little bit with how happy I was. Things are great, To kind of mask the real feelings. it wasn't until I processed the grief of the breakup that all the actual deep joy came back. Mm-hmm. So I was doing the things to. Cultivate joy to choose joy, to increase joy in my life. I was doing that maybe a little bit more desperately than normal, but I'd lost sight of what it feels like to feel truly, deeply joyful during that time that I was denying my truth and denying the real feelings, and trying to kind of cover up for myself and ignore. And la la la my way through things that were a problem, so right now I'm currently in a very joyful place, but it wasn't long ago. I can remember it really vividly. That I kind of had lost my connection to daily joy. That was real. so one of the ways that I know, when I'm in a joyful place I sing more like that make up stupid songs when I'm doing some nice, sing the words, and that's like an indicator to me like, oh yeah, you're in that place right now. Even if I'm singing, why can't I Fi find my Stupid Keys? Right? Yes. Because I'm still in the place where singing comes naturally. So, so that's joy. Right. And it's, it's, it's a clue to me that I might be really annoyed with myself right now because I can't find my keys, but I am still in joy. and the other indicator, which I hadn't realized was missing during that period of time, was that in the morning? At some point? Probably 20 years ago, I started this practice I would lay in my bed and go through my gratitude in the morning and think these positive thoughts. This was a really tough period in my life. So I was, you know, really trying to create these practices that made me focus on what was good, cause other things were challenging. And one of the practices was I would wake up in the morning and I would say, oh my gosh, I love my life. I love my life. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So I kind of made it a habit. And that was a specific season when I needed that tool, and I don't remember where I got it, but that's how I knew I was back because it has stuck with me all of these years. And one morning I woke up. And I, said it and I'm like, oh my gosh, I've come out the other side of this really dark journey. so I do that in the morning. I wake up and I'm like, I love my life. I'm so happy. I, all of those things and it's, it comes naturally cuz I've been doing it for so long, but I hadn't recognized in the past and I'm sure there have been seasons when I haven't done it. Never had it been so stark. Hmm. That it had returned and I thought, oh my gosh, when was the last time I, I said that? Mm-hmm. As I was coming outta that, I had a conversation with a friend who's a coach and, I was talking about all the things I should be doing and, and she said, how about just for a little while, you ask in the morning, what would I love to do? Instead of this other question you've been asking yourself, well, what I love to do today, and by the way, that's such a luxury and a privilege, Mm-hmm. To even be able to ask that question, But I am in a stage of my life where my responsibilities are different. I'm older. I don't have any kids. I work for myself, although I don't always have a ton of work. Right. So that, that can be scary, mm-hmm. Um, so I thought, oh yeah, let me try that for a little bit. you know what I ended up doing? I ended up starting that podcast from interviews. I had been collecting and recording for a couple of years, but that had sat on my computer because. I had been choosing something different. So when she said that, I thought, what is something I would love to do that I haven't been doing? And it was to turn those interviews into a podcast. And so now all of that has contributed a ton of joy because the learning, the doing, being able to show up that way has been so fun and has been such an antidote and such a treatment for what could be a really distressing time.

Lauren: 7:14

Mm-hmm. That question is really powerful. I like that question because it makes you conscious of what you are going to choose for the day. You could just make that decision right there at the beginning of the day, whether it is starting a podcast or whatever it is, you know, for that day to get you into that space. That's just so amazing.

Martha: 7:35

there are some days when I say, what would you love to do today? And I think, well, I'm really gonna love going to the dump the things you have to do, right? Yeah. I'm going to love. Going to the dmv. Right. because there are things you have to do. Then when I go to the dump I am definitely thinking, like doing this with joy, almost like making fun of myself. And it does kind make it better. You're always gonna have the chores and the things you have to do, you may as well inject those with joy too. I have a habit of worrying about where money's gonna come from and where work is gonna come from. Cause I was a single mom and I'd been the. Sole provider for so long, and a little bit of internalized messaging that it wasn't responsible to do something fun like that, that I wanted for myself. you're right. Just asking the question. opens it up so that you can consider, okay, well I'm making these choices today and why, because I wanna keep my family together, or because I wanna stay on track with whatever, or because you know, it's really important for me to get my stupid mental health walk, Whatever. You still get to make the choices, you still get to live the regular life. But there's something about the question. I'm so grateful for her that she introduced that into my life because it. Has been super helpful. If you asked yourself that question this morning, what were you thinking? What would I love to do today on a beautiful weekend? Today?

Lauren: 8:50

Initially I would say I get to go outside and hike up a mountain or go hiking with my dog. However, with this on my mind, I've been so excited about having this conversation with you. I would say I gotta do a podcast interview,

Martha: 9:04

yeah, it is exciting.

Lauren: 9:06

You know, we have two choices on how we feel and handle things really. Like we could just go do those things miserably. Be like, oh gosh, I have to go to the dump. What a waste of time. I hate going there. It's stinky, Or we could do it in that realm. Hey, I gotta go to the dump and get rid of stuff. again, it's that conscious shift of how am I gonna shift a pattern. My husband and I talk a lot about this, and I don't know if you've heard about this in, in any of our episodes, but we talk about pattern shifting.

Martha: 9:34

Yes. So when

Lauren: 9:35

you are in this normal pattern of doing something and you're realizing, oh gosh, it's creating this anger, or this worry, or this frustration, how can I go back and choose it differently and do it differently? For instance, oh gosh, I gotta go to the dump and I have to run all these errands. I have to clean my house, versus I'm gonna put some music on and I'm gonna have this beautifully cleaned house. You know, you just do things very differently and you shift that pattern a bit. I think sometimes we walk around as. In a sense, robots just, we just kind of do it. We don't think about things, but when you wanna be in joy and create more joy, we have to soul search a little bit what are the patterns I do that continue to make me angry, what can I shift and how can I do it differently so that I can be more joyful and happy during whatever I'm doing?

Martha: 10:26

Yeah. what you said is interesting about patterns because how many of the patterns are just programming and ideas we've gotten somewhere else that something isn't fun. I think some of it's commercials, right? Commercials like, oh, cuz everything has to, to sell you something, you've gotta have a problem. So they make everything seem like it's painful. Mm-hmm. On some level. Oh, I have to go to the grocery store. Oh, isn't the worst chore.. But you know what? I kinda like the grocery store. Yeah. For some reason it's really fun for me. Grocery shopping is fun for me, and it sounds crazy, but is it crazy? Or are we just getting the message that grocery shopping sucks? Right? Because grocery shopping is like this giant building full of fruits and vegetables and all of these things and people and crazy things happen in the aisles and colorful packaging and ideas in case you don't know what you wanna eat this week or, whatever. Or new products. it actually is an interesting thing to do. oh, well if you do it every week, oh, do it for five kids, All of those things. Okay, maybe. Maybe that really is how you feel and what your valid feeling was and came from within, and you generated it yourself because that was your experience. But I challenge people to go look back and say, okay, when did you first decide that grocery shopping was terrible? mine was different. It's more like family messaging, But when did I decide that I needed to struggle and not do things I loved? When did I decide that I couldn't do things? That were in my area of interest and then make that decision and just live it as if it was the case. Mm-hmm. some of those patterns aren't even ours. So I'm actually going to use that, examining the pattern and going back the next time I find myself complaining about something that I have to do, the next time I'm in the morning, like I am gonna love going to the gynecologist. Right. And I'm gonna say, okay, wait a second. Objectively. What is bad about it is that you get to stop by Starbucks on the way. Is it that it's next to this place that you like that has those weird candy caramel things? Which part of the going to the gynecologist do you hate? Is it that. They have a really easy parking lot, or is it that you like your doctor? Mm-hmm. Or is it that you are doing something and being responsible for your health? Is it that one thing in your life that's completely focused on you and is kind of self-care? Like which part of it do you hate? Martha? Mm-hmm. And I could come back and say, I really don't like the speculum. Right. And then I can be honest about what sucks about it. And it's the one thing. Right with

Lauren: 12:46

that. And then when you think about all the other things that are great about it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, like you said, all those

Martha: 12:52

external things, like I never get that chocolate unless I'm going there. Right? And so if I have an extra visit, let's say like this year I had an extra visit. I had to go back for something and I thought, Ooh. I can now chocolate again this year.

Lauren: 13:04

Yeah, right. Exactly. It's those external pieces or factors which we don't pay attention to often. It's just, oh, I gotta do this. And that you say that every Saturday night, I'm meal planning for the week and I'm. Always thinking, oh my gosh, I'm so tired of meal planning. I can't stand this. Like it's, I hate it cuz I'm so tired of it. Yeah. but I have to think of all those other things you know, there's so many great things about it. it comes back to being grateful too. I get to do this, I get to provide great meals for my family. I get to cook them. And sometimes my children have planned some meals and that actually is really fun. I'll be like, I wanna pick a meal and I'm gonna cook it. And incorporating that a little bit more.

Martha: 13:45

Yeah. And then the message you give your kids is, Hey, meal planning is fun. Yeah, exactly. And then maybe, maybe, maybe not. Because there are companies out there that want you to think that meal planning is hard. So they'll be getting messaging about, oh, sick of meal planning. But maybe that'll be something they like to do and their partner will. Be like, are you kidding me? Like, no, come on. It's, we're gonna sit on a meal plan. It's so fun. Yeah. And they'll be bringing joy to someone else.

Lauren: 14:10

These little things that can just bring joy, which we don't think about. I wanna really quickly circle back to that time in your life where you were not, you didn't say pretending to be enjoy, but you had all this heartbreak and so forth going on and it's really interesting. See, there's a reason why we connected because years ago when I started this whole process, I was working with a coach and I had to ask people who were really close to me, specific questions. One of them was my best friend who I grew up with, and. She had gone through, this whole period of my life when my dad got sick with a l s and I lost him. And , the question she asked was, I can't remember the question I asked her, but she came back and said, I wonder if you actually let yourself feel sad when you're sad. And it was really powerful. It really opened up my eyes because I also have always been a very happy person. Just as a kid smiled all the time and anytime anything was bothering me, I would just kind of push it aside and I would do life and I would live and be happy. And then what I realized after all this work, I was masking that joy, right? Even though I thought I was being joyful and I was feeling joyful, I truly wasn't internally feeling it. And you had mentioned that and I thought that was a really interesting connection. And you had said, you know, when you find yourself seeing then you know now that you're enjoy. But what other kinds of things do you feel when you know you're truly enjoy?

Martha: 15:35

Oh gosh. Cause the singing is a big one and dancing around a little bit. And of course the waking up in the morning, like, I love my life. Oh my gosh, thank you. Which is such a funny habit I was working on these very deliberate. Practices and then that one just stuck and it just makes me laugh cuz it's totally unconscious now. It's before I'm even fully awake. I'm saying it in my head something that happens spontaneously. I'm trying to think of other ways that I know, because like you, I have always been very good at. Sticking to my persona of being the joyful, happy person. there are definitely times, and that was one of them, instead of feeling it and letting myself feel it, I was. Keeping up my energy and doing all the things that bring joy to try to bring it back, and then not going through it. And I had to actually stop in that situation and let it wash over me. And it was hard, right? Mm-hmm. It was, I had been resisting it for so long that I, I think I probably stretched it out. It probably didn't have to be so long. Process, but I had been avoiding it, like you described. was pushing it aside and, when I actually let it happen, it was really, Dark and really heavy, and then it kind of passed through. Like there's only one way through it. And I knew that intellectually, but I was resisting. if someone had asked me socially, I would've said, oh no, I'm great. Everything's great. No, I'm, I'm happy. Yeah. listen. No, it's good. It's good. I would've given that answer at the same time. That it wasn't good. I wasn't good. and then when I let it happen, people just didn't really see much of me When I was actually doing it. I just went inward and, did it. And, thank God, cause you, you have to feel it. But, I'm trying to think of besides those things, what my little indicators are. I mean there, there are little things like I get into flow. you know what, why I'm having trouble with this, the indicators also sometimes the source. Hmm. Or can be used as practices to get back in there. So for instance, when I'm working and in flow, where I look up and go, my gosh, it's been how many hours, but not in the, oh my gosh, I've been working so much, but in the, oh, when I got lost and I did this stuff and it was awesome. Mm-hmm. That is both an indicator and something that creates joy because when I've had those flow moments, Afterwards, I'm totally energized instead of being exhausted after 10 hours of working, or like I told you, I was working on that project yesterday learning a new thing and I thought oh, I spent the whole day. But in reality, I spent the whole day because I wasn't even paying attention time cause I was learning and it was this new experience. so I think the other indicators that I find myself in flow more, which makes me think that when I'm experiencing joy, I allow myself to be in flow more. Instead of stopping myself and saying, no, you have to do this and this and this. and give myself reasons why I can't get into that great book or I can't waste time, With quotes on learning something new or doing something that takes me five hours and would take someone else one hour, I'm not enjoy, I am judging all those things all the time as whether or not they're worthy activities. Mm-hmm. Do I have time And when I'm in Joy, I do have time to read the book. I do have time to learn a new skill. So those are also indicators for me when I'm not shaming myself as much.

Lauren: 18:49

I don't think we realize, that we might be in that state of joy tapping into those feelings and what's happening is important. So we know.

Martha: 18:56

And I had to think about it. You just observed me discovering it. That was not something I knew to tell you, and I was thinking, what else is it? Now I'm aware of that. I wasn't aware before this. So thank you. Yeah, thank you for this interview. Now I'll notice it next time. Or I'll notice when I am not allowing myself To do something like that and say, okay, what's going on here? that you're not allowing yourself to take that time.

Lauren: 19:21

Yeah. I think you'll notice on

Martha: 19:22

both

Lauren: 19:22

ends. Yeah, for sure. How do you share your passion for joy with others?

Martha: 19:27

is very specific right now, but in general, I try to be an uplifting person. It's definitely with humor. I feel like I've been pretty serious on this interview, but in general, I'm kind of irreverent I like to make people laugh especially, it's probably a coping mechanism when things are tense I'm going to try to break the tension with humor in some way. My current project. Is it cool if I talk about it? Yes, please. So my current project is something that kind of helped me in that transition from being depressed unhappy and sad about that situation as I was coming out of it. this is, again, back to that thing where the practice can actually bring the joy, right? Mm-hmm. I don't know if it's a chicken or the egg, but as I came out of it, I had picked up a project that I'd been wanting to do forever, but I hadn't allowed myself to do. a podcast about, Perimenopause and being a woman in midlife and all of these things we go through. So I have a podcast called My. Aloof Vagina, it was named because that was the first recognizable symptom I had Impending menopause and I did not know it was a symptom. Thank goodness it happened because being afraid that my sex life was over forever. then I'd somehow missed it Mm-hmm. That, scared me enough. This threat that maybe, maybe my Vagina wasn't working anymore, was enough for me to do the research to figure out that I actually was in perimenopause. That there is an entire constellation of symptoms that we are not told about and some are just being discovered because, you know, the medical community hasn't paid a lot of attention. To the attributes of the change. Because they kind of thought, well, you're a grandma now, It doesn't really matter. Just not a lot of interest in studying it and not a lot of interest in fixing things for us. we kind of, in previous generations, were expected to just go. be quiet about it cuz ew, that's gross. Or be quiet about it because, mm-hmm. Well, everyone goes through it and I felt, upsets not the right word. Angry might be the word, like a little bit angry, low level anger, nothing crazy, but a little angry that I could get to that point back and realize that even though I was seeing doctors, and even though I'm a pretty open person an educated person, that I could have gone that long without. Knowing that I was going through this process and that there were things I could do to mitigate some of the characteristics and the traits of that process. So I, went on a research jag and then started sharing it with my friends. But because of who I am, I shared with my friends in a funny way, Because some of the stuff is so alarming, so I was recording for my friends and sending emails and telling them, and ultimately that turned into a podcast for other women because the more people who heard about it, then I'd get messages from people saying, Hey, can you send her that thing about clitoral atrophy? And I would say, okay, cause that was the thing that scared us. All No one was alarmed when I talked about wrinkly necks or collagen, or. making sure you're getting the right micronutrients. No one freaked out when I talked about hot flashes or crepey skin on your legs. But the minute that we knew about clitoral atrophy, my friends freaked out because no one had mentioned it. When I went looking, when I suddenly thought, oh my gosh, I'm in this. And I, like I do anything else, I was research, research, subscribing, getting apps, listening to podcasts, reading articles. So much of the messaging was couched to hit your pain point so they could sell you something. Mm-hmm. And I found myself getting more and more sad about, Oh no. You know, cuz it could be a very sad stage for a single woman, Who's still out there trying to date this is me. Mm-hmm. And, I'm all alone, And I thought, you know what, no. this is a season where I am able to choose joy. I am able to choose my activities. I'm wiser. I have the luxury of going to the grocery store and and buying bougie stuff cause that's for one, I have the luxury of starting a crazy project where I talk about my private things in public, Mm-hmm. I have the luxury of all of these things, and a lot of it is because I'm over 50. A lot of it's because I'm over 50 and single. Mm. I felt like I could look at the funny side and the positive side. At the same time acknowledging the realities and maybe help other people. Get to have that journey through this instead of the, Hmm, what can I sell you? Mm-hmm. Right. Or, oh, it's terrible. The things that happen are not amazing. Some of them are just, you're like, what? it's ludicrous, but I don't believe it has to be miserable all the time. I think the messaging we're getting from each other is, oh, you're going through that. Oh, and misery loves company. And you know, the pain body, Eckhart Tolle's pain body. The pain body is super powerful. if I got a lot of attention for the fact that fill in the blank while I was having certain afflictions, then there's a lot of incentive for me to really get attached to that affliction and make that my identity. Mm-hmm. And I thought if I'm gonna make perimenopause my identity, it's gonna be fun. So, so that's what I did. So my identity is, that in that part of my life. So that is the practice, and that's why I have a lot of joy right now without that podcast. I wouldn't be meeting people like you. Mm-hmm. And it has brought a ton of positive energy into my life. optimism, a ton of information, great practices, I have something I'm creating every day, which is a huge joy creator. Being in creation, whether it's pottery or macrame you know, whatever the thing is. there's something that is unleashed when you allow yourself to do that. And it can be hard to find something to make in our modern life with all the things we have going on. But when you're making, you are being a creator, you're kind of generating and contributing. Even if it's just in your own house. That is a source of joy. Mm-hmm. To be able to create. So what I'm creating is this show where I wanna help women find out about stuff in a way that's not super medical, that's not super earnest or distressing, fun, but also tips them off because it's the ignorance that leads us to. Either get too far down the path without fixing things with diet, exercise, or what have you, or medical treatment and the shame. if I can make it so that you can get the information and it's not something to be embarrassed about, I'll embarrass myself for all of us and talk about these things, then I feel like I'm really helping inject joy into the world and into the lives of women who are in the same situation I'm in.

Lauren: 25:41

Well, I love that because, Now that I am heading in that direction, there's definitely a lot of negativity about it. So I'll hook onto what you talk about and I'll listen to all of your episodes about it. I don't wanna live the next however many years my life miserable. No. Um, while I go through that whole process of menopause, cuz to me it's not worth it. So, So this

Martha: 26:02

is the other thing about the consolation of symptoms. I now liken it to a giant playlist. And I don't like to call 'em symptoms. I like to call 'em traits and attributes because some of them are just your body changing, It needs support and care, but it's not necessarily an illness. The playlist of the potential quote, symptoms, attributes, traits. Is shockingly massive. That's why I didn't know what it was. That's why so many women don't know. I asked them like, what's your canary in the coal mine? is the thing that happened that you thought, oh my gosh, I'm in this. It's so infrequently the things you expected. your period stopping or hot flashes or other things. For a lot of people, it's something else. and then later they realize what it is and they look back. I talk about that because the playlist is so large and we all get a different shuffle. I might get something that you don't get, but we might have a couple that are the same. Mm-hmm. And then I might get in a different sequence than you do. And that I think is what throws women off and why they don't know and why so much of the suffering is with not knowing what to expect. And so my whole goal is to talk about these crazy things and help people know what to expect. And then also talk about things that people are distressed about that are happening, like incontinence, which is common, for moms in their fifties. Mm-hmm. And younger. And they don't talk about it cuz it's such a. Old lady marketed two thing like the next stop is depends. there's a lot in between peeing when you sneeze or laugh or jump on a trampoline and depends. Depends and, and there are things that can help you. But if you think, oh my gosh, I'm gonna need the pens. Then you might just hide your problem and not get treatment. So I thought, well, we'll just laugh about it.

Lauren: 27:31

I love that. That's so great. Well, I look forward to listening to many more of your episodes. Thank you. And laughing. I think it'll hopefully open the door for other women and allow them to have a different experience. Obviously not different what the body produces, but just their mind and what they think about it and how they deal with it.

Martha: 27:52

Thank you. And I, I love your show. I have to tell you that I, I have not read your book yet, but I think the service you're providing, I know that your focus on this came out of grief and this is a gift you're giving people. what's beautiful about your show is that you're not only focusing, just like we talked about how your friends said and like how I act and how you act. You're not just focusing on the. Happy, happy, joy, joy, Pollyanna version. You're, talking about the real life things that you need to do to maintain joy and happiness and harmony in a family as well, in places You can't just cover it up and you can't just ignore it and just be happy to get to join. To sustain joy and maintain joy, you do really need to be able to navigate the realities of life. Mm-hmm. Have tools. so I love what you're doing.

Lauren: 28:42

Thank you so much for that feedback. I appreciate it. This conversation was really enlightening for me, so I really appreciate your

Martha: 28:49

time. Thank you. I enlightened myself, I mean, you enlightened me, but also we processed things that I hadn't even thought about before, so I'm gonna walk away with new awareness about, My own self and the way I do things, so thank you. Good.

Lauren: 29:02

Thank you so much. I'm gonna go write that question down too when we're finished, Thanks, Martha. Oh, thank you.

Martha: 29:08

Thank you for listening. Until next time. Take care of yourself and take care of your vagina. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with a friend you think would enjoy it, too.