How Do Happy Endings Work? Is It Cheating to Get a Happy Ending? And What Do Guys Already Know About How They Work? (That They Don't Want to Tell Us!)

Martha: 0:00

This is one of those bro codes, one of those things that we don't know as women. This is inner sanctum shit stuff that we don't know that guys know.

Karen: 0:09

Yes. Yeah.

Martha: 0:10

This is the happy ending thing is a joke people know about. That's the tip of the iceberg. Let's just, yeah, the tip. So the tip, there's like, there are ways that you communicate it. So here's what we found out from our friend Welcome to the Maloof Vagina Podcast, where we explore the distress and surprise of our midlife transitions. We take menopause seriously, but we don't take ourselves seriously, and we believe that learning what to expect in perimenopause can be entertaining. It's inevitable, so we may as well equip ourselves and have a good. I'm your host, Martha. And this is the first of two episodes with Dr. K. We talk about meet cutes, shady dudes you bump into when dating in your fifties and the hidden world of happy endings. This topic blew up on social. I pulled people. to ask. Is. A happy ending, cheating. And the results were 70 30. Across all my social channels with 70% saying that, yes, it's cheating. And the rest saying either, no, it's not cheating. Or it depends. The gender mix on the answers also surprised us. It was about 50 50. Whether a man or a woman. Would choose yes or no. Which as you'll hear a firm's part of what Dr. K had been, trying to say, when we talked about it. when I was editing furiously to hit my deadline, I was talking to my friend and business partner, Doug, and told him about the interview. And he said. As a man, when you get a massage. A happy ending is always on your mind. Not that he's ever gotten one. and he'd tell me if he had, but he's thinking about it and anxious about the possibility. I don't know if anxious is the right word, but heightened awareness. And he said one time, he was at massage envy, you know, the Chipotle lay of massage therapy and he rolled over and this therapist seemed startled. And so as the new expert, I am. I explained why. And I'll let you hear in the episode. And then you'll understand what my off the cuff completely unqualified explanation was to him. So Dr. K and I were talking in Arizona. She recently moved there from the Midwest. And has experienced. Kind of. Uh, reawakening. And energetic. Boost. That has shifted things for her in a lot of ways. And one of the ways it has shifted her. Is sudden attention from men and more men that she's interacting with and more dating than she was experiencing before. So that was a topic of conversation as well. Dr. K and I had so much fun recording this. And there was so much good stuff that I actually had to cut it into two episodes. And because I had telegraphed this topic on social with my poll. We had to start with these specific stories about cheating and happy endings. And in the next episode with her, we'll get back to some background on things like hormones and peri-menopause. So I hope you enjoy. By the way I would love to stay in touch. So please join my email list@sisterhooddotmyaloofvagina.com. You'll always be the first to know what's going on. And I promise not to spam you. At this point in my life, I'm just too lazy.

Karen: 3:39

I've been single, for 10 years and never really. Found a relationship that I felt was the best for me. and then maybe just a few months into being here. My energy must have shifted in a way because, I attracted a lot more, let's say interest into dating me or being with me or visiting me or seeing me from men that I did not expect at 55 years

Martha: 4:03

Speaking of men, you're getting phone calls from men right now. I'm, turning your phone over cuz every time it lights up from these men calling you, I get distracted. yeah, I wanna talk about that. I wanna talk about. I know that we can detect the shift in our energy. You know, there's a, there's a dating coach that calls it turning your cab light on, like you turn on your cab light, right? And now people sense that you're open to romance and things like that. When you bumped into a hot guy in the grocery store and he was insistent on connecting with you, that that was a sign do you mind if we talk about grocery store guy. Sure. Um, so we'll just keep the details out, the details out. So, Dr. Kay is just minding her own business and this man spots her

Karen: 4:48

It was something kind of right out of a Nora Efron movie because I go the checkout and a. Literally bumps into my cart and and is like, Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, on purpose or what? No, no. He backed into my cart.

Martha: 5:01

Okay. Total meat. Cute.

Karen: 5:03

Yeah. And he said, oh, sorry, sorry. And I was like, oh, I know that accent So then the conversation got started and, he he was from the Midwest, right? And, he, quickly, Came up with a, we're new to this area and we need some information on restaurants to go to. Is it okay if, I get your number and you can shoot me a text and let me know, and so I'm like, I guess so. And I really left it at that. And I didn't think much of it. I mean, I'm not looking for, it's a Sunday for God's sake. Cause I don't even get outta my pajama. Still too So it was weird to me that he was even attracted to me. but then we started talking and, it was, you know, it was actually. It, it was interesting. But there was just that little something in me that's like, something's off. I don't know. Oh

Martha: 5:55

Oh yeah. He came on strong right away. Okay. The other thing that's interesting, cuz now of course ladies, I've read all the text messages between them. She's handed me her phone and I've read it. he, he was, he was pressing you at the same time that he was. Not able to honor his commitments on when he was gonna meet up with you, which was interesting. Yeah. Um, there was a lot of excuses about Yeah. Stuff. Yeah. But, but I'm glad that you met him cuz I'm glad cuz it kind of sparked things. It was like this great. It was like the great announcement, like, hey, you're here in the desert and everything's different. You know? I, I don't wanna have to get into a lot of details so we can just, we can cut to the chase and say that Right. Cut to the chase. You had drinks with him. You had already sensed that you weren't gonna do anything. He, you know, future talked a little bit about how you're gonna meet up and he was gonna fly you somewhere or whatever, and then he was hot and cold communicating with you. And then, um, while I was here, after more than a month of no nothing, he texts you, right.

Karen: 7:02

I felt like prey to him. Like, yeah, like I was being hunted a little bit, which that, that's a weird feeling. Um, but he also seemed like an incredibly, genuinely smart, uh, good looking, um, funny, human, human being that I would normally, under normal circumstances, would love to date. Yeah. But of course, so I thought he was kind of like fading away into the background and, texted while you were with me and I was like, ah, no And you figured, well, I'll let.

Martha: 7:42

well, you can describe it you did within two minutes. Well, yeah, so I'm, I'm a very talented cyber sleuth, and. Um, very, I might add and quick, quick, it didn't take long to find photos of him with his wife and his children, recent photos that his wife had posted and, um, it just made me wonder, part of the reason that he was so hunting you was, I was recently someplace in a woman. She described this, this concept of end of conference desperation where the last night of a conference or the night after a conference has ended. These married guys are just so on the hunt to score. Because they went from Omaha to Vegas or Chicago or Orlando. And they had thought, oh, I'm gonna hook up with someone. And it's like this free pass to go cheat on the road. And. so they disbe behaved differently right before that window closes for them. And so there was a little bit of that from the way he was when he was texting you until he got to hang out with you and have drinks. And then he, his new conference window was opening up soon, right? Which is why he texted cuz there was gonna be an opportunity for him to see her again. and then his friends. They must have known what was up. They probably know he's married with multiple children and they give each other that permission. Mm-hmm. Right. And that what are the, what are the ways that men are communicating that this is okay to each other? Like the codes they have?

Karen: 9:20

Yeah. Outta sight out of mind the minute I was out of his sight, they go on to the next and. So then you don't hear anything. Well, especially if he is in, you know, got a whole life. Right. You know, I just listened to my intuition, which told me this don't. Let this go any further.

Martha: 9:40

You had your instincts, which were, this isn't, this isn't measuring upright,

Karen: 9:45

yeah, like we had that conversation about cheating and if going to the, uh, to a massage, joint is for men is cheating, and we found out a lot about that from a

Martha: 9:56

a friend. Friend. Let's start with this. We were talking about happy endings, and the reason it came up was because Dr. K. Had referred a friend we know to her favorite massage therapist and. As a joke, she said, Hey, don't ask for a happy ending. Hardy heart hard. He was. He's like, whatever. And he came back and he, of course he was kind of pulling your leg a little bit because. He's trying to make Dr. K feel bad, like your lady would've totally gimme a happy ending if I'd given her a signal. And so then he went on to educate us about the signals. So I begged her to let us talk about this on the podcast, and we talked to him and got more information and got his permission to talk about it because, This is one of those bro codes, one of those things that we don't know as women. This is inner sanctum shit stuff that we don't know that guys know.

Karen: 10:51

Yes. Yeah.

Martha: 10:52

This is the happy ending thing is a joke people know about. That's the tip of the iceberg. Let's just, yeah, the tip. So the tip, there's like, there are ways that you communicate it. So here's what we found out from our friend Our friend shared with us that pretty much most of the time, except for like in a high end spa or something that a man can request a happy ending or a blow. or depending on the, place actual sex, like sex with the vagina or a variety of things, and that it's more commonplace than we would imagine. And that there are ways to request it that aren't verbal. That are not verbal. So that if it's a therapist who isn't gonna do it, you're not kind of putting yourself out there. And also you don't have to verbally ask for it. I mean, there might have been a scandal of someone famous, right? Where someone at a nice spa asked for a happy ending and offended the massage therapist, and I've talked to a massage therapist who say, oh my gosh, you can't believe it. I just had never connected the dots on it to realize that if the lady at the red door spa is getting a signal that a guy wants a hand job. that is because these guys and can encounter it almost anytime they have massage because the massagers can make more money.

Karen: 12:04

Well, yeah, but I don't think we should paint all massage therapy places because we're talking about certain we're talking about, Yeah. And and there's been a lot of stings on a lot of these places that are obviously egregious about it, I think if you're not doing it verbally, first of all there's not even if there's a recording or anything right? It all they're doing is putting the money in a

Martha: 12:26

in a strategic ation below the belly button. So this is the part he laughs so hard because of course. I had a million questions for him, cuz I wanted to know you're naked on a massage table and the way to signal that you want a hand job, which is about 20 bucks. He said, typically it's about 20 bucks. Like there's an actual, like there's an actual economy Yeah. A menu. And it's, it's not printed anywhere. No. Right. And it's not published and nobody knows. But the guys all know, and when I asked him at the end of this, I'm like, how did you know? He is like, well guys talk about it. So guys are training each other. Yeah. So. You just put your 20 bucks on your belly, near your dick when you turn over. So they start you on your stomach, and when you roll over, you take it and you put it there. And so I wanted to know you've had this. 20 in your hand? Well, that was the question, like where was the 20? Yeah. And he's like, well, you just kind of hold it in your hand, the whole massage. So like these guys have like a 20 bill in their hand while their back is being massaged. They're just waiting for the moment when she flips'em over so they can just surreptitiously put the 20 on their lower belly?

Karen: 13:32

Well, I mean, he said between

Martha: 13:34

his nuts and his penis

Karen: 13:36

but I mean,

Martha: 13:37

but he, he changed his story just a little bit. I think he said that to make me laugh or to make to shock you, right? Yeah. But, but so when, when we asked him more like a, in a scholarly white like this was a news in investigation, this was an interview, and he said, usually if you do that, so you put your money by your.

Karen: 13:55

No Below your belly button,

Martha: 13:56

Below your belly button, but that's by your dick

Karen: 13:59

I think its defense.

Martha: 14:00

below your belly button. You put your 20 bucks that you've been sweaty holding during the whole black massage waiting for your chance to get a hand job. You put it below your belly button and then they might ask you if you wanna upgrade. That was the part that was interesting to me is that they might. Give you a hand job. Or they might say, do you want something else? Do you wanna like, do you wanna see my boobs? That's be another 20 bucks. Or do you want, A blowjob, then that's$50 and do you wanna have sex? He said It can just, you keep negotiating. Negotiating. And then he said one time, there I was, had spent$300

Karen: 14:37

It's like before you knew it,

Martha: 14:39

This is a$80

Karen: 14:41

massage. is 380

Martha: 14:44

But I like,

Karen: 14:46

but he said it was worth it.

Martha: 14:48

Yeah, that's what he said. It was really great. so I, my mind was blown about the idea that this is so common, that there would be this menu that everyone would know how much it cost. Everyone knows how to communicate it. And that it's common enough that you rarely get rejected. As a cheeky reminder to keep in touch and access my aloof vagina goodies, sign up for my very occasional emails. At sisterhood. Dot my aloof vagina.com. And if you love the show, Please leave a review at pod chaser. There's always a link to that and other fun things in the show notes. At my aloof vagina.com

Karen: 15:30

And in my mind, I thought they only did hand jumps cuz I'm like, from what I understand, unless you're in Nevada, all of this is illegal. so I just assumed happy ending was just a hand job. I didn't know there was a menu like exposing a breast.

Martha: 15:45

Yeah, right. and, and negotiating to see both. Right. that's what he said. She said, he told us a story about a, a massage therapist. He was like, do you wanna see my breasts? And he said, I don't have any more money. And she's like, oh, I can show you one if you've got 20. And he is like, okay, well I've got 20, but I want to see both, right? Like,

Karen: 16:04

thank

Martha: 16:04

is the conversation he is having on the table. and then we asked if he had sex. Like, do you have sex on the table? He is like, yeah.

Karen: 16:11

And, and I just can't even, Ima I can't even go there. No. I mean, I know it, it happens obviously, but. I can't imagine, like I wanna go to a massage and just completely relax. Like there's two totally different goals, And it's just the makeup of us. Like I think because can be a very intimate experience like, He was describing the hot towels. and then how she was wiping his body. And that is such a turn on. Sure. And I'm sure that's not for everybody, but that it's can be a very central experience, but it's still a complete stranger. Like women, we don't. Get that

Martha: 16:46

No. Excited about complete

Karen: 16:48

doing that to us.

Martha: 16:49

Like no, I don't. but I mean, I'm, there might be people who do. Totally. I think it's interesting. Well, so this is the conversation that you and I had before we talked to him because we're talking about, it's just a hand job. Mm-hmm. and you know, could I pretty much give anyone a hand job if I had to? I could, right. Like it's not, that's not as intimate as oral sex or Right. The intercourse that he discussed. But, I had the very firm position that if I were married, that if my husband went to a massage place and had them give'em a hand job, I'd be upset that I would consider that cheating. and we had different opinions at that point when we were talking about it.

Karen: 17:30

Yeah. Like I think, I consider myself someone with a strong moral compass. Sure. But I also believe that, there are many women, perimenopausal, menopausal, that have just decided they don't want to have sex anymore. And before, We could speak about these kind of things. there were kind of like unspoken rules. Like, okay, I don't wanna have sex with you anymore. If you wanna go do that, then that's fine. And I, we're not gonna get divorced over it and call it cheating. And maybe it was unspoken, maybe it was spoken. I don't know. It just seems like, I guess, it's gotta be decided upon and, discussed. and you, maybe that's how you, you make the moral judgment in it within that, does your wife know or does she not know? Are you being honest or like being dishonest about It seems like a bigger deal to me than. what men go to these places for, which is somewhat transactional. Well, it is transactional. They're paying money for a service, I can see it like that because I don't think they're bonding, to these women. These women are definitely not bonding to them. I can tell you that they don't want have anything to do with them. It's a way to make money and really good money and. I think that it's a supply and demand thing and it's pretty much economics 1 0 1. But if you ever decided you don't wanna have sex anymore, I'm just telling you it's taking one thing off your chore list. right, If you don't wanna, if you don't wanna have sex, you don't wanna please them in some other way, that's meets their needs. I mean, I've been in relationships where, Three times a day of sex is not enough. I would've paid

Martha: 19:05

For Hampshire go there. You'd make the appointments like, please.

Karen: 19:09

it's enough already.

Martha: 19:10

yeah. I mean, you know, I So listen, I do think it's relational. Yeah. It, it would be decided within the relationship for me, I would not want my husband going and getting hand jobs at the massage parlor. I, that's

Karen: 19:23

because you would do it for him because I

Martha: 19:25

I would do it for him and I would consider it.

Karen: 19:27

but what if someone has said, I don't wanna even

Martha: 19:30

but that's not me. I'm saying, so that's so my argument when we were like having our disagreement because the disagree was very firm, like I was, I think it's cheating. I wouldn't want my husband to do it. And then, you know, we are going back and forth like, uh, maybe, but then, right. But then we had the conversation with him too, and then that brought us to a conversation where we discussed in more detail whether or not it was rules, within the relationship, whether or not you're breaking the rules, it would be breaking the rules in a relationship with me.

Karen: 19:56

Yeah. And I think he had shared that same sentiment, which I, I, I understand that. I do understand it. I just think there's something about the fact that if you get to a point in your life, That's not something that you want as part of your marriage. I mean, you have to really figure this out because they're gonna go quote unquote cheat on you because most men still want to have some sexuality, and the minute that's gone, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they don.

Martha: 20:24

some guys don't. Some guys kind of shut it down and get a little, whatever. I mean, the whole point really. are you being honest in your relationship? Yeah. And individual couples and their own relationships get to decide. Yeah, the challenge I think is because it's so hard people to talk about, for some couples they age into this where the woman doesn't wanna have sex anymore and. For whatever reason, she's allowed to be over it and done with it and past that season, but then they don't have the conversation because it's hard and it's painful. And not having sex with someone can feel like rejection.

Karen: 20:55

Yeah. And they can

Martha: 20:56

like it's because you're not attracted to them anymore. And so there's so much attached to it. I think we're not always honest about it, so we don't even express the actual rules. Right,

Karen: 21:04

right. right. yeah, that I thought that

Martha: 21:06

thought. That was like, that was an interesting conversation. It was fun. The.

Karen: 21:10

enlightening things I've ever heard,

Martha: 21:12

I'll never forget. I feel like I'm doing a service to womankind by bringing to the podcast, cuz where else would you hear about it? I, I agree and I've never heard this

Karen: 21:20

these years. No. And

Martha: 21:22

you're dating a man, he's not gonna tell you this. If you're married to a man, he's not gonna tell you this. brothers don't wanna talk about it. What man is going to go through the details of it for you. So we're lucky it's the man code. But yeah,

Karen: 21:34

find out that, they don't like women

Martha: 21:38

Oh yeah. He was, he was insistent that

Karen: 21:40

women's money doesn't work there. They get really

Martha: 21:42

mad. it makes sense from an economic standpoint. After he described it, it's like if, if every man that comes in could potentially, or let's trust his estimates is very likely to. Have money in his palm when he rolls over cuz he wants to get some extra services.

Karen: 21:58

Mm-hmm.

Martha: 21:59

When you're gonna give a woman massage and let's say it's a hundred bucks there, or 50 bucks there, you know what you're making before you start and you're not gonna be able to increase it. And it's the same amount of work. I mean, right, right. So yeah, you might be like, Ugh, my next one's a woman. I wish, I wish I'd drawn the man stride. You know, there's people in the, in the waiting room. And ma'am, why do I have to have that chick? that was an interest. Little piece of enlightenment cuz it's not, I guess you can make up for in a tip.

Karen: 22:24

it's basically you're making less money

Martha: 22:27

Yeah. For the same amount of time. Yeah. So I can understand why they'd be like, ugh, they probably fight over who has to take the next chick.

Karen: 22:33

Mm-hmm. Cause we were

Martha: 22:34

and this of course is an only uncertain establishments. This is not at

Karen: 22:37

but I mean, do

Martha: 22:38

you think?

Karen: 22:38

think some women actually want those services as well? I, wouldn't, but I I'm sure there's gotta be some

Martha: 22:44

From like a dude or from a chick? No, from a, I don't know. I don't know. So I do, I have one story and then we can, this will, we can wrap it up on this. I have a story. So I had. what I thought was a back injury. all these misdiagnosis is in my life. Mm-hmm. not clitoral atrophy, not a back injury, but I had a situation where I was going in and getting some pretty deep tissue massages everywhere I went, I was getting this myofascial release and I had moved to San Francisco and was trying to find a place to go near the house and I passed by a place You know, it looked nice enough. Uh, by the way, our friend confirmed like, oh, pl every must massage place in San Francisco has given out happy endings. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that, but I found out then some, and then some. So I was so excited to find this place and I went down there. and I went in for a massage. I walked in and the lady who greeted me was in a very short mini skirt very high heels at two o'clock in the afternoon. And I was like, oh, my right. so she brought the girl out to take meats for my massage and Practitioner was sullen. takes me in the room, okay, just take off your clothes. And the room had a shower in it and it had like bars on the ceiling, like for someone to walk on your back, which made sense to me, but I'd never seen a shower before in a massage room. And, it's very kind of perfunctory. It was not a great massage. And then, she rolled me over and she was kind of like getting really close to my, she kept like doing stuff with my legs, which I by now is self-conscious cuz I'm like, there's a shower in here. my spidey sense was a little off. And while, while she's like massaging my leg, I hear what sounded to me. Like a man having an orgasm pretty close by, like through the wall. And I was like, oh my God, this is a ribbon tug. Right? So she finished the massage I got dressed really fast. I left, I went home and I told all my neighbors and. My boyfriend, oh my gosh, that place down the street is a rubbing tug. They're like, really? I'm like, I swear to God, I heard a man. Yeah, I know. They're like, dummy, she must be new to town. And I was, but I had heard that man moan and the shower was in the room. But now Eight years later, talking to our friend, I realized, oh, that's why she was so sullen. She drew the shorts straw cuz they can't just not take me in says walk-ins

Karen: 25:00

Yeah. Especially if you're

Martha: 25:01

I might bust them,

Karen: 25:03

right? Yeah.

Martha: 25:04

someone had to massage me and this poor woman had to massage me and not get the extra money.

Karen: 25:09

so why is it that the cops don't, shut these places down? They know what's going on. They just can't entrap them.

Martha: 25:16

Well, it's illegal to entrap them. Like if, if a cop, first of all, if a cop rolled over and put some money on his belly, that'd be entrapment. Instead they use, hidden cameras and really they go after the johns. Oh, right. So those stings in Florida, that's what those were when they busted all those people in Florida. I don't know. I think it might be harder. I think the way they do it is very careful. You're in the room alone when the transaction, you're not like ordering a happy ending at the front

Karen: 25:43

Right. It's between two people. Yeah.

Martha: 25:45

And, I think that's why they don't do it.

Karen: 25:47

Yeah. I, it makes sense. it. It would be a hard sting.

Martha: 25:51

It would be a hard Sting Be hard. It would be super hard. and at what point do you bust them? Like what, at what point when you suspect he's gonna put money under his dick and then

Karen: 26:03

right.

Martha: 26:04

balls, when is it right? I don't know.

Karen: 26:06

Yeah. I don't know. I think

Martha: 26:08

interesting.

Karen: 26:09

a tough thing. It's, I guess it's tough to regulate really.

Martha: 26:12

Yeah. Yeah. It is tough. Well, so fun. I think that's enough now that we've talked

Karen: 26:17

talked my own

Martha: 26:17

Martha's experience at the Rub tug. Maybe that's what we'll call this episode. I like it. Even though you didn't

Karen: 26:24

actually

Martha: 26:25

Take Right. We'll just make that clear. Yeah, I was scared straight. I didn't walk into any strange massage places ever again in San Francisco. My gosh. I bet.

Karen: 26:35

Oh

Martha: 26:36

gosh.

Karen: 26:36

I had no idea.

Martha: 26:37

That's all for this first episode with Dr. Kay. We'll return with the rest in a part two. Thank you for listening. Until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your vagina. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review at pod chaser. Or next time you're on Instagram. Remember to look me up and let me know what you think. You can find me there as my aloof vagina